Kalani Scarrott (18:43): And yeah, for South Korea overall going forward, how bullish and excited or positive are you about their future? Because you mentioned they’ve moved up the value-added chain. So what is now what in the past might have been steel, shipbuilding now is semiconductors, internet of things, because Korea’s done very well, over 50 million population, economy’s fourth largest in Asia, and 10th in the world by GDP. So yeah, where do they go from here? Kalani Scarrott (27:14): Just curious. So do you get the green light from the publisher? I don’t know, at the very start and what does it look like, their terms, or even just like, what did they want the book to look like versus what did you want the book to look like? I’m just curious about that whole scenario cause I don’t know how it works.

Yet, books on Korea out there often feel stale and outdated. If not tunnel-visioned on the country’s economic success, South Korea is a nation heavily seen through the lens of geopolitics, or a country technically still at war.Kalani Scarrott (39:42): So, yeah. Cool. Ramon, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. I had a blast and yet cannot recommend your book us to anyone. Ramon Pacheco Pardo is Professor of International Relations at King’s College London, and KF-VUB Korea Chair at the Brussels School of Governance. He is also a non-resident adjunct fellow with the Center for Strategic Studies Korea Chair, and a non-resident fellow at the Sejong Institute. Ramon has lived twice in South Korea, and remains a regular visitor there for both work and leisure. He regularly teaches and provides media commentary about the country. About the moderator Shrimp to Whale] captures South Korea’s triumphant postwar ascent from abject poverty and trauma.’ — The Guardian

Kalani Scarrott (07:17): Yeah. And I’ll ask this at the beginning just in case it might lead us down some rabbit holes, but your favorite period or even moment in South Korean history? Kalani Scarrott (38:10): So yeah, just lastly, where can people find you? Obviously plug the book and where to find that, but yeah, anything else you wanna cover? Kalani Scarrott (05:29): I will touch on the book. Just curious who came up with the title of the book? Cause I love it. However, no account of South Korea could be complete without mentioning its impressive soft power gained from its pop culture, comprising world-famous K-Pop bands, Korean movies, TV dramas, and authors, which first conquered Asia, and then much of the world. Yet even here, there is a practical aspect to its development, which was fostered and supported by the country’s authorities who wanted Korean movies and music to spread overseas and attract the wallets of foreign consumers. Kalani Scarrott (35:20): And again, general, or even, you can apply this to Korea if you want, but have there been either any books or people maybe that have been influential in shaping you and your worldview?A wonderful introduction to contemporary Korean history. This book shows how a small “hermit nation” has transformed into vibrant, dynamic society. A must-read for those who want to understand Korea today.’ — Sung-Hwan Kim, Chairman of the East Asia Foundation, former South Korean Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade What explains this extraordinary transformation? For some, it was individual South Koreans who fought to change their country, and still strive to shape it. For others, it was forward-looking political and business leaders with a vision. Either way, it's clear that this is the story of a people who dreamt big, and whose dreams came true. But what “Shrimp to Whale” does well is to provide snapshots of some of Korea’s most crucial moments in snappy, digestible paragraphs. These include when King Sejong the Great, the fourth ruler of the Joseon Dynasty of Korea, created Korea’s native alphabet known as Hangeul; the country’s path to democracy that came after Japan’s colonial rule; and the Korean War. He touches upon crucial K-pop moments too, including when soloist BoA first topped the music charts in Japan with her debut album in 2002.

If there’s a country that “punches above its weight”, it’s South Korea. It’s home to some of the world’s largest and most important companies, and the source of pop culture that dominates Asia—and even planted a foothold in the West. Strongman Rhee Syngman, who first came to power by winning an election in 1948 that led to the formal creation of the Republic of Korea (South Korea), oversaw the nation’s gradual recovery from the war, but also entrenched an authoritarian system that was to remain intact until the 1980s. Shrimp to Whale is a lively history of South Korea, from its millennia-old roots, through the division of the Peninsula, dictatorship and economic growth, to today’s global powerhouse. Join author Ramon Pacheco Pardo for the launch of his book Shrimp to Whale: From the Forgotten War to K-Pop and learn about the the incredible rise of South Korea, from colonisation and civil war to today’s thriving nation.

What explains this extraordinary transformation? For some, it was individual South Koreans who fought to change their country, and still strive to shape it. For others, it was forward-looking political and business leaders with a vision. Either way, it’s clear that this is the story of a people who dreamt big, and whose dreams came true. So I find that very interesting actually, because in the abstract, especially younger people feel well is something that maybe we don’t want to do. But when it comes to the possibility of this actually happening, no, you actually see that this is something, that would be supported by the people of South Korea, right? of course, I’m not saying that North Korea is going to collapse in anytime soon, but some Korean said, Well, we thought this wouldn’t happen with the Soviet Union, or we thought the Arab spring wouldn’t happen, and then it happened. So what happens if there’s a North Korean collapse, then I’m pretty sure most South Koreans would rally behind a unified idea of a unified Korea, or even if it’s, if there’s a more long term process in which is reconciliation and the positive of unification, I think most South Koreans would support it. but yes, as, as I said, in depth, I think there is still the, there is this division between younger South Korean who feel this is not the way to go and other South Korean who feel we should still strive for it. It remains to be seen if the country can continue to shine as brightly as portrayed by Pardo, but Shrimp to Whale is an enjoyable read that does well to describe how South Korea became an improbable “whale” from its humble beginnings during the mid-20th century. Charts the incredible rise of South Korea, from colonisation and civil war to today's thriving nation.

Shrimp to Whale: South Korea from the Forgotten War to K-Pop(Hurst, 2022) by Ramon Pacheco Pardo tells the story of Korea over the past sixty years, charting the country’s path through dictatorship and democracy to the economic and cultural powerhouse it is today. And, and of course the advantage of this is that if one of the sectors is not working quite well, but some others are working better, right? this means that the Chaebol can survive, right? It’s not focused on a single sector. They’re very diversified. and if one of them is not working well, they can cut their losses and focus on other ones, right? And, example of Samsung that they just mentioned, for example, for a while, Samsung tried to get into the car making sector. This actually didn’t work right? But, but it’s very strong in many other sectors. So the, the company didn’t disappear, it was able to continue, right? So this allows for a long term planning that it wouldn’t be able, if you only focus on one sector or, or you only had one company essentially in two or three sectors only. Ramon Pacheco Pardo (22:32): Yes I think it’s interesting, I think in the abstract, right, many Koreans think it’s unlikely that unification will happen anytime soon. And younger Koreans feel that this is not the way to go. that is true, but that’s in the abstract. I think when push comes to shove, if it looks likely that this may happen, I think perceptions will be different. I mean, you saw this in, in 2000, we had the first inter-Korean summit and people thought that the unification was coming soon, right? and people rally, they had the cause. But even in 2018-19 when we saw the summits between Moon Jae-in and Kim Jong Un and we also saw Trump, of course meeting with Kim and I happened to be in Korea for the first of those summits. again, many people rallied behind this saying, Well, you know, this is something that they happen, you know, reconciliation and eventually unification. South Korea’s foreign policy evolution from ‘Shrimp to Whale’: interview with Ramon Pacheco Pardo on Arirang Global Insight: Pardo said he was blown away by “how full of life” South Korea was when he first came to the country in 2003 as a student. Originally from Spain, both countries went through a dictatorship coinciding with a period of economic development before transitioning to democracy. These similarities were what first motivated him to experience living in South Korea.Kalani Scarrott (08:15): Yeah. And in the book, you made a great illustration on the growth after the war, cause I think off the top of my head, the IMF even called South Korea basket case. So the growth from after the war. And you gave this great illustration just from someone being born in 1920 through to them turning 50. So could you highlight the changes they saw and what that looked like? This is a book by someone who adores South Korea and has done so since his first trip there as a student. […] Pacheco Pardo captures the remarkable scope of recent triumphs that give South Korea both agility — as Moon’s diplomacy has shown — and the affection of a global audience.’ — Financial Times John is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, National Committee on US-China Relations, and National Committee on North Korea; he is also Pacific Century Institute board member, Asia Society senior fellow, National Committee on American Foreign Policy leadership council member, and Center on Strategic and International Studies adjunct fellow. He is a member of the Republic of Ireland’s foreign affairs advisory network and is invited to offer his analysis on East Asian affairs with government, think tank, corporate, and civil society organizations globally.